Opinions needed, how old is "too old" to cook an entire Thanksgiving meal alone?

I'm 75 and I've hated preparing Thanksgiving dinner all my adult life. I no longer do it and will never do it again. My sister feels the same way. Our problem was that we'd help each other prepare a dinner for 14, but no one else helped cook or cleanup. Since the older ones have died (in their 90s), I've avoided inviting anyone and don't care to accept invitations to anyone else's house for fear of making it harder on them. Enough already. If I unfortunately find myself in a position of having someone at my home for a major holiday, I will order dinner from my local IGA food store. About $45 for a turkey dinner, a great meal, and the only work is setting table and cleaning up. And then I will want help from attendees to do that. Have I made it clear that I HATE Thanksgiving? So do a lot of women. HATE it.

Addenda to my previous post: I was caregiver to my husband, a jerk. He insisted that his family, who never helped, come visit as houseguests for major holidays. They didn't cook, they didn't clean, the got drunk early in the day and let their kids run wild to cause damage to our home. He told me that if I didn't like what they did in my house (that I half paid for), I could leave. So I did. Permanently. But only after he got well enough to look after himself. Really, people, especially caregivers, you don't have to put up with being treated badly by anyone - including your mom's husband, your husband's kids, or the damn Thanksgiving turkey.

Your Mother is too fragile to put that dinner together. My prayers go out to you that she survives. Would love to hear what you finally did. If you live nearby maybe you could get her to volunteer at a woman's abuse center or get her to see a counselor to talk to her. I am 75 and could probably go out skiing or get in shape for a ski season out west. I could not make a Thanksgiving Dinner for 14 people. I would end up in the hospital. If your Dad wants leftovers he could order a few extra Thanksgiving Dinners from the caterer or when going out. I remember how delicious Homemade spreads were. At 75 I wouldn't want the meals of my youth laden with fats, salt, white breads and sugars. We had a Thanksgiving Day Dinner at Mother's Senior Facility and I skipped the dishes we used to love. Turkey with gravy, sweet potatoes and marshmellows, green beans in a cream of mushroom sauce. Thankfully plain turkey and  steamed green beans were also on the buffet.

New2this, Here it is the day after Thanksgiving and just wondering how it all went. I hosted 7 adults and 5 young children for a 3pm dinner, and I. Am. Exhausted. today. Was exhausted to the point of pain last eve after clean up and no help in the kitchen, and I'm in fairly decent shape physically at age 60! A girlfriend had to leave right after the meal to attend another family gathering. She was a surprise guest and great help with last-minute prep yesterday. The two young mothers each brought assigned food, but post-dinner they tended to their babies and kids while my dad and the two young dads visited. I made leftover to-go boxes for everyone and did all the clean up, loaded the dishwasher and then unloaded and loaded it this a.m. and hand-washed items as well. And that was with disposable plates and cups! What so many people don't realize is that EVERY project is "make a mess, clean up a mess." You can't have one without the other if you're going to do it right. Whether it's cooking, gardening, car repair, construction, sewing, whatever...it ain't completed until the mess has been cleaned up and everything put back in order. The "make a mess" part is usually the easiest, but it's often "inconvenient" or "unpleasant" to follow through with the "clean up a mess" part, but it still IS a part. I sure hope some younger folks are reading these posts and step up to bat when it comes to looking for ways and opportunities to lighten someone's load no matter what the situation, especially when their elders are involved.

After backing up and reading more comments, I think I have come to the conclusion that most of the problem with hosting Thanksgiving or any large meals is the lack of PRE-ASSIGNING pre- and post-dinner non-cooking duties. We usually assign food/items for guests to bring, but there needs to be specific assignments for set up, clean up, trash, putting tables, chairs, furniture back. That's where I get exhausted. And the house cleaning that needs to happen a couple days prior, especially bathrooms. As a former special events coordinator who gave out detailed assignments before event day, why the heck haven't I applied this to family dinners?

Because you are too old? Lol.

IMHO, let the younger person step up to the plate and cook the Thanksgiving meal.

Hire an event planner and a cook.

Dawndy,
Like your posts. After reading, this idea came to mind.

First, as women, many will say: "I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, 'cause I am a w o m a n!" Then, when they don't want to cook, at all, or anymore....
Then is when you stop being the hostess.

Think about it.....through the years.....hostess for 15-30 people, half were women?
It must be a rare woman who is doing all that excellent cooking, you know, the rare one who also ends up the caregiver?

I remember the last time I cooked a Thanksgiving dinner myself. My husband is one of 11 kids, so my MIL only has recipes for 13 people, she was the cook when I was first married. When it was our turn, I worked like a dog for days and spent Friday wiped out.
Then I got together with my SIL's and we did potluck,which we've done ever since; now it's my daughters and DIL's and nieces that cook, and we've had as many as 52 people. One of my SIL's, now early 80's, hosted last year, but again, potluck. This year we had just my immediate family (19 people) at my son's house and my daughters and DILs took charge, assigned me the pumpkin pies and that's all.
When I was a kid, my dad was the chef for holidays and Sunday dinners; my brothers were also the cooks for special meals for their families. But one memory of Thanksgiving was at my dad's mother's, where we did TG as long as she lived (to 93). Once my dad saw her whipping up egg whites for her angel food cake, and told her "Mother, the house is full of women, someone can do this for you." Her answer: "It is my Privilege to make this cake!" Remarkable lady, but not many like her.
One rule at Grandmas, or our house, or holiday dinners at my family's, is that whoever cooks does NOT do the cleanup. The other side of TG at Grandma's was doing the dishes with my cousins, which was a great way for us younger ones to spend time together. But--I'm 70-something and haven't made a holiday dinner by myself in years. And all our menfolk cook.

You know .... To me, Thanksgiving is excrutiating, utter BULLSH*T....We have all been brainwashed forever to think of a Big Jolly Waltons-type Holiday, loving relatives all gathered at the matriarch's (0r patriarch's), faces all aglow with love, elders in their wisdom sitting at the head of the table, comical wee grandkids capering about the kid's table, loving brothers/sisters/aunts/uncles/cousins. Holding hands, head bowed saying grace. Just like a darling tv commercial. ... I am a middle-upper class suburban type, and in the last 10 years, here are some Thanksgivings my friends and I suffered through. 1) my bestie was alone because her kids have cut her out of their lives. 2) the next door neighbor, her boyfriend pulled a gun out and shot the turkey. I kid you not. He walked in the kitchen drunk as a skunk and shot the turkey. 3) A mentally ill relative, fed up to THERE with my mother, punched a hole in the wall, ran out into the night and disappeared for two weeks, 4) I took my mother out to eat and her Depends exploded in my car and besmirched my car seat. 5) and (earlier) where was my father in all this? Sitting in his recliner, drinking beer, and watching sportsball, oblivious as a brick wall to everything!  (I, this year, at age 66, have decided I am DONE with it.  My daughter is 30, and if she wants Thanksgiving, and her father wants Thanksgiving, he and she will have to get together next year and buy all that sh*t and cook it themselves.  Or have it catered.  I am done.)

Oh my goodness, Lassie! He *shot* the turkey..?

I mean, they're not my favourite-ever food but I wouldn't go that far - !

I had a WONDERFUL thanksgiving. I come from a family of foodies (and I don't mean pretentious gourmands) who celebrate family around food. My sister hosted. She LOVES to do it. Three tables were set with plain tablecloths and colorful print harvest-theme place mats (which she made several years ago). Each table had a centerpiece and candles. Napkins were harvest-theme fingertip towels I'd given her some time ago. Lovely and welcoming tables!

Each person was assigned a dish to bring, commensurate with their skill levels. (I brought an amazing wild-rice/mushroom side dish with Gruyere cheese topping, and a decadent chocolate roulade from Jacques Pepin's recipe.) My nephew's dressing with apples and cranberries was awesome. The buttered, roll-up lefse disappeared moments after it was set on the buffet. There was horseradish sauce for the smoked beef, apricot sauce for the pork tenderloin roast, and, of course, gravy for the turkey. Another nephew brought a huge quantity of garlic mashed potatoes -- his annual specialty. A few of my sister's older grandchildren brought appetizers they had made. All of the food was amazing, and was made with love by people who love making it.

There were no shots (or any guns in sight), but the venison sausage gave testimony to some shooting in the past.

There are always tons of planned-over food. One of my sons bought several packages of food containers of various sizes, washed them the night before, and contributed them. We built two complete meals for persons who couldn't attend, and then packed take-out packages. (I'm working on turkey, pork, and mashed potatoes here at home. Plus a slice of pumpkin pie.)

We ate on a vintage set of stoneware dishes. My two sons washed the dishes, and silverware, and pots and pans, displacing my brother-in-law who usually does that. The younger folks brought the full platters down the stairs to the party room and back up the stairs not-so-full for the food packers and then to the dishwashers.

Two of my nephews were really interested in the pan I brought my rice in. They hefted it for weight and decided it was enameled cast aluminum. They asked what else I made in it. (Did I mention that the entire family is into food in all of its aspects?)

The most contentious discussion all day was whether cream of mushroom soup was a basic ingredient, qualifying a recipe for a "from scratch" designation.

I had a WONDERFUL holiday. I hope (and expect) that as the older generation slows down on these kinds of activities some of the next generation will take over.

Pass the gravy, please.

OK, reading over these posts, I recall some Thanksgiving nightmares, just in case you think I have no reason to hate Thanksgiving. As a child, Grandpa took Thanksgiving as his invite to feel up the little girls and stick his tongue in Aunt's mouth. Multiple years. He was very stealthy about it and we were taught not to question anything adults ever did, so that was Thanksgiving as we grew up. When I was married to my jerk husband, his kids and I went to his cabin in the mountains for one T'giving. Immediately after she arrived his 26 year old daughter started baiting husband about paying for her wedding. She was nanny for a 40 year old widower and convinced he'd marry her, though he had made no move in that direction and his sisters hated her. Husband tried to talk her out of the delusion that he was going to propose, she blew up, yelled and cried, went in her room and slammed the door refusing to come out. Stepson tried to fry a turkey but it didn't cook, so we had to put it in the oven at a late hour to finish the job, all the while hearing sobs from the bedroom. Husband getting madder, and stepson running in bedroom to comfort stepdaughter, I'm handling all other details and trying to soothe everyone. Then she came out, aimed choice words at her dad, whereupon he freaked out, yelled "SHE'S RUINED OUR THANKSGIVING" and slammed into the MBR. She sobbed some more and locked herself in her room, leaving stepson and I staring at each other over turkey and to clean up the mess ourselves. Next day husband and daughter not speaking, friends from home arrive for rest of weekend with their old dog, they cannot sleep on the queen size bed because Moll won't come out. Finally she did and sulked the rest of the weekend. More drama ensued. As we drove away from cabin on Monday, husband says, "Well, that was really fun, wasn't it?" He was SERIOUS. And you don't contradict a narcissist when you've got 800 miles to drive home with him. Several months later the widower took his sons and moved out of town to get away from Molls. Left in the middle of the night without telling her. Another T'giving another stepson arrived with his foreign wife and two kids. No discipline with the kids. The youngest, 3, trashed our house, threw CDs on floor and stomped on them, climbed on the backs of the furniture nearly tipping over, climbed on counter and grabbed knife from sink and aimed it at her sister's neck before I caught her, put a plastic bag over her head (thank goodness we caught her in time), and jumped on every bed in the house, screamed bloody murder when she wasn't getting enough attention, and all my stepkids were drunk by noon. Plus rude. Plus getting on husband's computer without permission, plus not one bit of help cooking and cleaning up. Then there was T'giving with the elderly relative with the colostomy bag that smelled, the mistress who called dad while he was eating with us and our mom (my parents were still married), the aunt who couldn't get along with anyone. Once we went to a restaurant for Thanksgiving and all paid our part of the bill, and the richest of all brother-in-law insisted he was entitled to the turkey and took all the leftovers home for himself! I have other examples, believe it or not some are worse! We are upper middle class folks, professional people, lawyer, IBM executive, everyone should know how to behave. The holiday seems to bring out the worst.

Then my final Thanksgiving story. Jerk narcissist husband had a disabling stroke the day before Thanksgiving. I then spent the next 2 years as caregiver for this abusive alcoholic spouse before divorcing him and his family. I am sure their Thanksgivings haven't improved but only gotten worse - and I'm thankful I'm no longer part of it. Now I'm going to go have a delicious grilled turkey and Muenster cheese sandwich and count my blessings, one of which is that this Thanksgiving I am not a caregiver for anyone after a total of 6 years or so of caregiving one person after another, sometimes two at the same time. I still bear the scars, though.

Looks like this thread has taken a turn far away from the original question. Good and bad stories are being shared.

We all come to holidays with a different perspective, but I think it's helpful to appreciate that and create the kind of holiday WE want, or don't want.

I do want to address Lassie's comments about brainwashing as part of creating a picture perfect holiday.

I don't know how anyone (no one specific, so I'm not casting blame) can not realize that we as people and consumers have become commodities to be prodded, tricked, manipulated or just plain encouraged to spend.

Don't forget that consumer spending is one of the major components of the GNP.

And don't forget that the Internet has opened many avenues to be exploited in "encouraging" people to spend, and spend even more. That's life. I don't appreciate all this manipulation, but as an individual I have to power to "just say NO." As does everyone else.

I won't deny that the over commercialization and commoditization of personal information is a major aspect of websites in the Privacy Policies and TOS, and I avoid many sites just because of that.

But we each have a choice. I boycott some sites which others flock to and freely spill out personal information and post family photos. I don't budget for how much I'm going to spend on presents at holidays. If something is needed and at the right price I buy it. If not, I feel no obligation to spend just to conform. And no one else should either, but there seems to be some kind of "herd" mentality when it comes to holidays or posting on sites with egregious TOS and Privacy Policies.

As the old saying goes, "don't get mad, get even." I'm not suggesting retribution, but if you don't like the atmosphere surrounding holidays, just don't accept it. Boycott. Create your own holidays, or just don't celebrate them at all.

tacy022, I love your idea of having your celebration at a time more convenient for your family!

I like celebrating Chinese New Year and/or Mardi Gras and/or Cinco de Mayo or anything I can create a food theme for. Hardly ever have to deal with scheduling conflicts with in-law families.

Thinking of this whole issue of people as spending concepts, I remembered a few other issues that I think are relevant.

1. I assume there are some PBS fans, and some who watched the Mr. Selfridge series? Remember how he revolutionized spending?

In the first episode if I remember correctly, an introductory scene was the attempt to see what a retailer had available. The very proper and correct salesman only brought out what HE thought the purchaser might want. There was no opportunity for the purchaser to wander through the store and decide what he/she might want. Choices were limited. Impulse spending, if even existent, was limited.

Selfridge revolutionized that and used gimmicks to bring more people in.

2. Back in 1991 I took some French classes to compliment those taken in high school. Our prof told us that French retailers were regulated, that sales could only happen as the government dictated. I don't recall if it was one sale annually, or semi-annually, but it was a shock to learn that sales didn't occur weekly, or almost constantly as here in America.

Their government was obviously different, but that limitation on sales limited retailers', manufacturers' and importers' sales, and thus limited government revenue from taxes.

Gardenartist, that would not suit me very well. I LOVE my Sales. lol

I think there is some dysfunction in every family, but, our holiday gatherings generally turn out pretty well. We all get along and seem to have a good time at the gathering. This year almost everyone stayed for about 6 hours! So, I think they enjoyed themselves. And my parents eat this up.

This year was a little funny though. My mom, who is 76, insisted that she cook it all, but, with a couple of others bringing a dish or two, but, she did ASK a few of the ladies to arrive an hour early in order to help set up. LOL Well, I started helping 3 hours in advance, but, it was just me and mom. NO others showed up early. In fact, they all arrived about the same time and that was about 45 minutes late. lol Don't you just love family! lol

The Waltons are alive and well - they all shared the holiday with jeannegibbs!

No disrespect intended! I envy you and your family!

Most of my thanksgiving holiday - from childhood until last year mainly fell in the crap category.

This year - since hubby had to work -as he has for the vast majority of our twenty holiday seasons together- I decided to just stay home with Rainman and experiment with a new cooking technique for turkey.

Alas - the turkey didn’t turn out quite as good as I had hoped for - but it’s still eatable. So - turkey sandwiches and other leftover creations for the next few days.

Not exciting but I’ll take it over the years of eating over cooked under seasoned mush I had to eat at the various Old Folks Homes or the forty-plus years of family dysfunctional drama before that.

Bon Appetit’!

Sunnygirl1, this reminds me of a family event I hosted. A grandson volunteered to come 2 hours early to do some cleaning. He arrived only 1/2 hour early, with his new girlfriend. I handed each of them a dust cloth and told them where to start! The girlfriend took it in stride, and will become his wife next summer!

I have more consistent luck with people helping cleanup after the event.

RM, Jeanne mentioned an apple stuffing in her post a few posts back. Jeanne, RM is looking for a stuffing recipe with apples (and I believe oranges). Maybe the two of you can get together and share recipes?

If you work something out, will you share it? (big grin as I await someone else's hard work being shared)

GA - I basically used a recipe that was from Martha Stewart. I found it by googling. I believe it was called Citrus Herb Turkey.

For a Martha recipe it was pretty easy - no fancy carmelizing and such. It wasn’t all I had hoped for but I think cooking the bird at 425 degrees might have been part of the problem. A slower, lower heat probably would have allowed the flavors to build and mingle better.

But yeah - still on the lookout for a recipe that uses apples as well. So jeannegibbs, if you’ve got one and feel like sharing...

then nephew's girlfriend might like to help, ask her. The other family members should also bring an item or two that's just manners. Agree some things can be made ahead of time.

Oh, my, Lassie, that's a very traumatic Thanksgiving! A drunk person with a weapon shooting a turkey! When I first started to read your post, I thought it was going to be like "he shot and killed the turkey at the turkey FARM. Good grief! Not to mention the mentally ill person punching a hole in the wall. Phew!

Well, thank god, it's OVER for another year. Just Christmas to plow through, then New Years Eve, and settle down into a long winter's night...I am actually looking forward to nice assisted-living communal meal, should I live so long! Just wheel my chair out of my room down the hall, take my place, pick and choose and complain, share war stories of holidays past with the others,
lol! I won't have to worry about a thing except indigestion ;-D

Darn last minute change of plans!
We were expecting a couple of people to join us but it didn't work out. I found that out only hours before cooking. (Grrrrr) So, I made everything that I'd planned anyway.

I learned a long time ago that the "easy" foods, (like canned sweet potatoes or packaged stuffing) is much better when it's doctored up to be more like homemade. Mash the sweet potatoes with butter, cinnamon, salt and top with baby marshmallows and it's just as good as roasting them in the oven and peeling and scooping. For stuffing, add some turkey drippings, sautéed onion, chestnuts, celery and sausage to a StoveTop stuffing box and it's great. Store or bakery bought pies can be reheated to crisp up the crust and saves hours. Most folks like the breast meat so I buy only a breast and bake it. I throw some pan drippings into a turkey gravy packet, open a can of cranberries and add a tablespoon of orange juice and a few orange peel shavings and heat up some Kings Hawaiian rolls. Easy (more or less) TG dinner.

I guess most people enjoy those grocery store meal packages. I find them just as much work to transfer all the food to heating dishes or casseroles than it was worth. Costs a lot more too.

Tomorrow is my 3rd day of turkey sandwiches. I think I could eat a (real roasted) turkey sandwich every day of the year.

My MIL had us for Thanksgiving every year (about 10 years of our marriage) until my FIL announced one year that she wasn't up to it anymore. She was around 65. Then it became my job for the next 20 years. No help from ex-husband. We were both only kids and our son is a vegetarian so the dinner group was pretty small.

I continued the TG meal tradition when I married my Mexican husband. (Thanksgiving is not celebrated in Mexico.) I had my husband's family (18 of them) over and cooked 2 turkeys and a ham! The oven was going for 12 hours straight. Never again!! No help before or after.

Being an only kid, I was so excited to be in a big family. Well, it ain't what it's cracked up to be. One brother's family doesn't talk to my husband and me , another brother won't socialize with anybody, SIL gets drunk and mad, then pushes pregnant niece and nieces husband beats her up, other sister is outcast because nobody likes her husband (he IS a pig) so they don't attend any festivity, other sister and BIL drink way too much and get too loud.
Makes me thankful that Thanksgiving is not a Mexican holiday. We have learned to avoid Christmas too. So much for a big family.

Would to like hear from New2This. Several of us are wondering how “T-giving In Crazytown” turned out. 

Some excellent suggestions were bandied about. For next year, of course. With all hinging on how much change Mom (who seems to be cowed by stepdad) and Stepdad (a card-carrying jerk AND bully) can handle. 

One size does not fit all!

And some elders are determined to self-destruct — right before their adult children’s eyes.

These years are tricky and stressful. Witnessing parental decline creates a unique despair.

Thinking of you, New2This. Come back and give us an update.

We do some shortcuts here. This year we cooked a whole turkey from Trader Joe's, but usually we have a turkey breast. My kids LOVE Stovetop Cornbread Stuffing, so that's what we usually have. Next year I'm going to make separate homemade stuffing for H and me. I cook cranberry sauce. We don't have lots and lots of sides. Sweet potatoes and green beans. Rolls are bought. I made a pumpkin cake for (the one) dessert.

My mother said last Christmas that she wasn't coming to my house anymore. It's too hard for her to walk over part of my lawn. So last week I asked her if she was coming for Thanksgiving, or if she wanted us to bring her a plate (like we did last Thanksgiving, because she'd hyperextended her knee and was in pain). She wanted to know if we'd be done before dark, and I said I didn't think so. I'm not totally moving my Thanksgiving dinner time just for her.

And I'm glad she didn't come over. When we brought her a plate (plus leftover turkey plus half a loaf of pumpkin bread), the first thing she wanted to know was if my older son "embarrassed himself." Everyone just looked at her (although I knew what she was going to say because she's complained about him plenty of times), and she wanted to know if he had seconds and thirds. My older son is overweight (he's made great progress in the past year in losing weight). And then asked AGAIN later on. She also spent time complaining about her neck (of course she didn't complain in her Thanksgiving showtiming performance on the phone to my brothers), the prescription mail-order place, etc.

I'm so glad she didn't come over for dinner! I'm not going to put up with her talking to/about my son like that. Christmas dinner will be (or at least end) after dark, also, and we won't miss her. I think my brothers are bothered that she's alone, but if they cared so much they could get down here and make dinner for her in her condo. (Before anyone asks, that is not a possibility for me, because she is obsessive about how one does things, etc. She can't relinquish any sort of control, at least to me.)

Some great ideas, observations, and stories! My little brain went to the same place as some of you, it is really that Mamma LET Stepdad run her over after she said no. He knew full well last year that even with him catering some of it she wasn't up to even that. He knew I brought a ton of stuff that I didn't want to cook, (3 day of shopping, cooking, transporting, cooking, washing dishes), after I had said no. So really, looks like he thought he'd not only run over her, but me also. When I told my real Father what was going on here he laughed his head off and said, "fool doesn't know you very well, does he?". :-)
I'll help anyone, all they need to do is just ask. I won't be bullied. But it really does come down to Mom letting him. For what reasons, I don't understand. Maybe her own pride? Maybe a feeling of obligation? Maybe because she is just so used to giving in and letting him have his way with everything that it has become natural to her? I don't know, but it was her decision to make.
Mom survived it, imagine she'll be in serious pain for a week. DH and I stayed home, there's no way I'd go and not contribute, and wasn't being forced into several days labor again. After 32 years of it, I paid my dues. I'm 52, I look 42, am tall and slim and lots of muscle. Was just always built that way. I look like I am pretty fit, but, I have UC, the extra intestinal manifestations of it as well, it attacks my eyes and joints just out of nowhere sometimes. B-12 deficiency can make my feet/lower legs numb, couple that with the knees and hands and wrist feeling like they are being stabbed by little skewer, the massive L4/L5 disc rupture that took out some lower right quadrant nerves permanently prior to surgery, the permanent 15 LB lift limit the neurosurgeon placed on me, I'm probably not the best candidate for "work horse". Bad part is it's not possible to "guess" when I will feel reasonable, or not. Had all of that in hyperdrive at same time sadly last year, right when I had to do all that, but Mamma had asked, she needed help, so I pushed through, put on brave face, honored her. This one was completely different though.
Thank you guys for sharing, helping me. I am "an only" now, only Sister died a few years ago. She was ill, supposed to have 3 to 5 years, that is why I left my home and city and business, of 32 years and moved back here. To help her. She died 6 weeks after they had given her the 3 to 5 years, and we moved into our new home here. Real Father, world traveler, self employed hard hitter, friend of the court in many famous cases by invitation came down with Parkinson's and it has hit hard. He can't travel at all anymore. Doesn't think as before either, has lots of trouble even with phone calls. It's an 18 hour drive one way to see him. I've done it a few times, will go again in spring. Guess things just change, and we just gotta roll with it.