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You can gift now 14,000 (I think) to anyone each year without tax penalty. Maybe 10K when you received it. So, by January 2, you can give her back 28K without tax implications. Taxes on 2K, take it. Talk with Elder Law attorney on how is best to do this.
Panda, you posted this on my personal message board, but I'm going to add it here, to help you get good advice.
"I know I can give back the 30000 that’s called curing the penalty but I got it in three 10000 installments with no taxes but now I have to give it all back at once since it’s over 14000 will there be taxes?"
Panda, I'm not knowledgeable enough about this topic to give you good advice. It seems that I did clarify your meaning, though, with my previous comment. Hopefully others can give you appropriate input.
Please, please do not blithely do this without dealing with Medicaid first!! It’s a catch 22 if you do this as Otherwise Wife gives mom 30k & it appears to be a gift which is “income” the month it gets deposited and then an asset afterwards. You need to be sure it counts towards the transfer penalty. Which means mom applies for LTC Medicaid and she / you go through the process.
Why? Cause transfer is not exactly a simple 10k in = 10k out. The transfer penalty is an basically an equation based on whatever moms state pays the NH as it’s medicaid daily room&board reinbursement rate and penalty will be # of days ineligible in which someone will need to private pay for moms stay in the NH. That 30k is what you all use to pay NH and it could actually cost more than 30k....(more below)
The math is: amount gifted divided by reinbursement day rate Avg daily R&B is $ 170. BUT some states are lower & some much, much higher. Like for my mom the R&B was about $ 160 a day. So 30k = 188 days someone would need to pay NH to get beyond transfer penalty period. BUT for a mom in $250 day state, would be 120 days. R&B day rate mucho important as the penalty is # of days ineligible. comprende?
Now why it could cost more than 30k, is that the NH doesn’t necessarily have to accept mom on the lower daily Medicaid rate. NH can bill at higher private pay rate. Often private pay rate is double Medicaid R&B. Kinda depends on market forces where you all live. If you know a penalty will surface, my suggestion is...... for you all to negotiate in advance with the NH as to what rate will be privately paid for the transfer penalty period. NH is more than likely going to make you & your bride sign off on a contact to have mom reside at the NH; you will be legally financially responsible; NH could ask for a refundable deposit as well. That’s why the costs could exceed 30k...... sigh.... really whomever is better at hard ball shopping should take the lead in dealing with NH. The NH could also decline from accepting mil as “Medicaid Pending” so if there is a gap of time from the last day of transfer penalty period to Medicaid processing her application and making her eligible till payments start to flow to NH, that period of time could need to be private pay as well (altogether you should be reinbursed for any double pay months once medicaid retros payments). One bright spot is that as mil is private pay, she can use her SS income to pay towards her stay!
Transfer penalty is not simple. If it’s just $ that’s the penalty, it can - imo - be a DiY, if your a pit-bullie for details and negotiating. Otherwise I’d leave it to an elder law atty to work through it. If the penalty involves property or other assets, those need an atty from the get-go imo.
If your top pick NH won’t negotiate, find another NH. Eventually she will be fully qualfied for Medicaid and you can move her once eligible to the top choice one or another NH as long as new place has an open Medicaid bed and they can provide the level of care you MIL needs. I moved my mom within her first year & couple of mos after she cleared Medicaid to another NH. With a bit of planning, it was pretty seamless & minimal drama.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
"I know I can give back the 30000 that’s called curing the penalty but I got it in three 10000 installments with no taxes but now I have to give it all back at once since it’s over 14000 will there be taxes?"
Panda, I'm not knowledgeable enough about this topic to give you good advice. It seems that I did clarify your meaning, though, with my previous comment. Hopefully others can give you appropriate input.
It’s a catch 22 if you do this as Otherwise Wife gives mom 30k & it appears to be a gift which is “income” the month it gets deposited and then an asset afterwards. You need to be sure it counts towards the transfer penalty. Which means mom applies for LTC Medicaid and she / you go through the process.
Why? Cause transfer is not exactly a simple 10k in = 10k out.
The transfer penalty is an basically an equation based on whatever moms state pays the NH as it’s medicaid daily room&board reinbursement rate and penalty will be # of days ineligible in which someone will need to private pay for moms stay in the NH. That 30k is what you all use to pay NH and it could actually cost more than 30k....(more below)
The math is: amount gifted divided by reinbursement day rate
Avg daily R&B is $ 170. BUT some states are lower & some much, much higher. Like for my mom the R&B was about $ 160 a day. So 30k = 188 days someone would need to pay NH to get beyond transfer penalty period. BUT for a mom in $250 day state, would be 120 days. R&B day rate mucho important as the penalty is # of days ineligible. comprende?
Now why it could cost more than 30k, is that the NH doesn’t necessarily have to accept mom on the lower daily Medicaid rate. NH can bill at higher private pay rate. Often private pay rate is double Medicaid R&B. Kinda depends on market forces where you all live. If you know a penalty will surface, my suggestion is...... for you all to negotiate in advance with the NH as to what rate will be privately paid for the transfer penalty period. NH is more than likely going to make you & your bride sign off on a contact to have mom reside at the NH; you will be legally financially responsible; NH could ask for a refundable deposit as well. That’s why the costs could exceed 30k...... sigh.... really whomever is better at hard ball shopping should take the lead in dealing with NH. The NH could also decline from accepting mil as “Medicaid Pending” so if there is a gap of time from the last day of transfer penalty period to Medicaid processing her application and making her eligible till payments start to flow to NH, that period of time could need to be private pay as well (altogether you should be reinbursed for any double pay months once medicaid retros payments). One bright spot is that as mil is private pay, she can use her SS income to pay towards her stay!
Transfer penalty is not simple. If it’s just $ that’s the penalty, it can - imo - be a DiY, if your a pit-bullie for details and negotiating. Otherwise I’d leave it to an elder law atty to work through it. If the penalty involves property or other assets, those need an atty from the get-go imo.
If your top pick NH won’t negotiate, find another NH. Eventually she will be fully qualfied for Medicaid and you can move her once eligible to the top choice one or another NH as long as new place has an open Medicaid bed and they can provide the level of care you MIL needs. I moved my mom within her first year & couple of mos after she cleared Medicaid to another NH. With a bit of planning, it was pretty seamless & minimal drama.