Hi everyone,
Just joined. I have a strong feeling I may have been unfairly billed by my new attorney so I'm posting here to see what others think.
I'm taking over managing my mom's financial affairs since her husband recently died unexpectedly. Since she's on Medicaid and other services, I sought the help of a highly-experienced, credentialed local Elder Law Attorney with several favorable Google reviews (and no bad ones).
When I made the appointment on the phone, I asked about charges (since it wasn't volunteered). I was told the attorney charges $300/hr.
So then I asked how long a typical meeting lasts with the issues I had, and was told "about an hour". So I was expecting to pay about $300-$400 for the initial meeting.
When I started listing the specific questions I had about transferring assets from her deceased husband's name, the attorney said he needed to bring in his assistant to help with that part (who started taking notes).
Then the attorney asked to see my mom's will and Powers of Attorney. He found problems in all three documents (which I agreed with) and said he'd fix them immediately and I'd walk out with new documents today. He left the meeting and came back with new versions for my mom to sign a few minutes later.
After about two hours (including small talk) the attorney verbally added up fees for the new will, new POAs, $100/hr for his assistant's help, and a $400 retainer, and said my bill was $1,500. I was "in-shock" and said I wasn't expecting to pay that much (since I was under the impression we were paying for the attorney's time at $300/hr). So he wrote the $1,500 amount on and envelope, handed it to me, and said, "just send me a check".
My beef is that at no time was I ever told in advance that I was going to be billed separately for all this stuff, or how much it would cost. I never signed any agreement for services or fees (I was just going from the $300/hr quote when I made the appointment). I didn't know my bill would increase another $100/hr when the assistant came in. I wasn't told what the $400 retainer was for. I still don't have a physical invoice or bill for these services either, just an envelope with $1,500 penciled on it. We were sort of rushing out of the meeting when our time was up and I was kind of embarrassed to be caught off-guard like that.
Is this typical? Was I just naïve for not assuming we were going to be charged significant fees beyond my original expectations (due to my lack of experience dealing with attorneys)?
TIA for any thoughts!
We would hand them a wine list, ask them to look it over while we went and did something or other and they’d change their minds to something less expensive when we came back. I’d always wondered what would have happened if we actually brought someone a bottle they outright could not pay for.
Anyhow, I might explain to the lawyer what happened and see if he changes the charges. If not, well, you could give him his first bad review.
As for how you find good people to do very particular work or render professional services you need, I'm at a loss on that score. Word of mouth, but even then I'm not sure. So, I'm ready to defer to others except to say this: after having had an accountant who left the country with $300 of my money for preparing my taxes (which he never did) after I had just lost my job, and whom I had given my business to for 20 years, I later simply picked a name of a CPA out of the phone book. He has been excellent. Good luck!
Where I am, this would justify a report to the Law Society and an investigation. Probably also a report to the Tax department - people don't pay taxes on envelope notes.
Everything a lawyer does beyond simply answering questions is going to cost something, plus his time. Learn to send emails with multiple questions. Never send one with just one question, because they usually charge in 10 minute increments and if your email with one question required five minutes to answer, you'll be charged for 10 minutes.
Do everything in writing, because small talk is much easier to fall into in person, and more money will go out the door for no good reason.
My attorney charges me seemingly random amounts, but then gives me a "discount" on the invoice by knocking off about $150 from the total. I guess it's because we're long-time clients, but he still charges a lot for not much.
Since you used the services, you will likely have to pay for them, but you can look at the invoice and decide if you want to contest a specific item. I doubt that you'll have any luck negotiating away the extra time. They will also argue that you consented to have the second person in the room and used their services.
The one thing you should be able to have removed is the retainer, which should be a deposit on future related services. If you don't plan to use them again, you wouldn't want to give them a retainer.
So, once you get the invoice, you can either try to have a reasonable discussion with them to remove the retainer, you can try sending them a check for $1,100 or whatever marked paid in full and hope they cash it*, or you can get into an extended dispute with them.
If you think you might go for the extended dispute, see if you can find any proof of how long the meeting took place: parking receipt, cell phone log, etc.
Normally I would expect this work to be paid for out of Mom's funds, but if she's been on Medicaid for a while, there may not be that much left.
*As always, if you want legal advice you can rely on, consult an appropriate attorney.
How and where did you find him?
A few comments: was the assistant a paralegal/legal assistant? If so, that's not an outrageous hourly rate in this day and age. Do you know if he/she prepared any of the documents, on the spot? If so, and unless there was an emergency, such as having major surgery from which you didn't expect to recover, documents are in my experience rarely performed and drafted in one meeting.
They're prepared after the attorney provides necessary data, a secretary or paralegal prepares the documents. reviewed by the attorney, then signed, typically in a second meeting.
If the "assistant" was a secretary taking notes, it's highly unusual for a secretary's time to be billed. This is exploitation, squeezing the client, and in my opinion not consistent with any legal standards which I'm familiar. Paralegal time is billed though as he/she is doing work an attorney would normally do.
Secretaries are asked to notarize and witness execution of documents, but that time in my experience was NEVER charged to a client.
As to Google reviews, I wouldn't rely on Google to even predict the weather. Anyone can fake a review. Peer reviews by other attorneys are advisable though.
You do have an absolute right to a printed statement, and you also have a right to file a complaint with the state bar association.
This is what I would do:
1. Don't call the attorney, e-mail or write a letter, saving copies of everything you write. Advise that for various reasons (don't enumerate them), you need a hard copy of the billing statement for your files.
Address the need for a retainer. If the docs are already prepared, why would this person need to be on a retainer? This to me is overreaching, and sneaky. But I certainly wouldn't consider returning to this guy.
2. When you get that, review everything, including all your comments, then consider filing a complaint with the state Bar Association. It may take some time, but if there are breaches of performance, the Bar Assn. should take action. In my experience, they notify the attorney and ask for his/her explanation, then make a decision.
thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply.
(FYI I'm trying to avoid listing any identifying info in my response here).
I found him by searching for "elder law attorneys" on Google maps for one with good reviews whose office was reasonably close to my mom's house so it would be convenient for me to take her there for business when I came to help (I live out-of-town).
His office and website both look professional (the latter mentions he's a member and former officer of the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys).
I have no idea what his assistant's qualifications are. When I started reading a list of some assets (with dollar amounts) receivable by my mom (and asking about the Medicaid implications), he said he needed to bring his assistant into the meeting. Later I think he said she was going to create an Affidavit of Succession or something like that, to transfer ownership of my mom's husband's bank account. However I didn't have the account number with me so I said I'd provide it later (but I haven't communicated with the office since we left). It was at the end of the meeting when he was verbally adding up charges in his head that he said he included $100/hr for her time, to arrive at the $1500 total.
Regarding my mom's will and Powers of Attorney, he asked to see her existing documents. All three documents needed replacing so he asked us some questions, then he left us in the the meeting room and returned with new versions to be signed and notarized. We took them with us when we left. I suppose I can give him the benefit of the doubt on getting them done immediately from seeing my frail, elderly mom. However there was no mention of extra charges for these until he told me what his final bill was for the meeting.
Your two main points sound like an excellent action plan so thank you very much for responding.
Take care,
wavemaster
My parent's first visit with an Elder Law Attorney was just an hour. First thing the Attorney asked my parents if they wanted me to sit in on the appointment. They said yes. The Attorney herself took her own notes. My parent's legal needs were complex as a Trust would also be needed to be created.
None of the documents were prepared during the appointment, it was weeks later before the second appointment to see the Attorney for the new Power of Attorney, Medical Directive, and Will. And a third appointment to see a "draft" of the Trust.
In the mean time the Attorney sent my parents, with a copy to me, of the cost involved, and they had to sign paperwork to have the Attorney begin her work. When finished, my parents got the legal documents in a 3-ring binder, along with a CD disk of same.
My Elder Law Attorney worked for a large firm, thus they may do things differently then say an Attorney who is in a sole practice.
I wouldn't send a penny until I received an actual bill. There's a reason it pencilled on an envelope and that is plausable deniability. If you complain now, he can say he never billed you, which is true.
Once you get an actual bill, if it is beyond reasonable, then you can file a complaint and protest the amount.
He was able to do this so quickly because they have fillable forms that conform to state statutes.
Oh, any attorney can be listed on NAELA, it doesn't mean they know squat about elder law, far, far better to use a CELA, they care enough to become certified in elder law.
Edit: our CELA restated our trust, updated POAs, medical directives, wills and created a foundation for less then this guy is charging you. Just an FYI for anyone assuming a CELA will be more expensive.
The other thing that makes no sense here is that you were not fully informed of the cost.
Overall, two years ago, my brother and I paid total of 2,500 for POA for me, MPOA revisions, Trustee of Trust documents, consult in office times two for about 1/2 hour each, and the attorney's visit to the Rehab facility x 1. He had to return for another set of originals when Fed Ex lost all the original documents; that was on his dime, said he. This was cost in So. Cal. You would think perhaps more expensive there (tho cost of ALF in that area about 3/4 what they would run in the Bay Area).
The problem I have here is that I feel you were not informed of the costs. We were. The documents we got were marvelously well done and I was complimented by several entities on how thorough they were. At the time my brother had been diagnosed with "probable early Lewy's Dementia". The attorney's exam of his mentation was extreme, to the extent he said "Certain you want to do this? Because these documents will allow the sister to get the gold out of your teeth".
Alva, some quickie attorneys might do this, but the larger law firms with established practices draft their own documents and would never rely on someone else's documents.
Their documents are much better in addition b/c they keep up to date on legal changes. One of the firms I worked for published monthly updates on issues related to the firms' varied practice areas. Another held monthly meetings (those were the best as well b/c we had Q & A sessions, as well as lunches from one of the local Jewish delis. Ymmmm!)
Statutes and case law were used when appropriate to upgrade ALL affected documents. These law firms were strict and professional and would absolutely never use documents they hadn't prepared themselves.
I assume you have the actual completed documents in your hand? You want to have this in hand; otherwise he can hold them till you pay in full.
It's different though in transactional law. My responsibilities didn't include document prep (secretary did that).
The upfront charge was $420 (discounted from $525 due to union membership) for an up to two hour consult.
We went over our financials, our real estate and our previously done docs (will, poa, hcp). She pointed out something that should be changed in my poa and told me that I could either go back to my original free legal team and ask them to amend or she could re-do my will, which would cost $850.
We discussed re-titling my coop and she said she would tell us what that would cost, and would get us an estimate on setting up a trust to put the coop in.
Did the lawyer inform you of charges for re-doing your docs? Our lawyer took her own notes.
Call your state Bar Association and ask about how you were treated.
Thanks for your reply. Our attorney did not inform us of any charges to re-do the docs, until they were already done and the meeting ended.
I think I'll call the state Bar Association as you suggested.
"His office and website both look professional (the latter mentions he's a member and former officer of the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys)."
I'm wondering if this guy was single practitioner, or a member of a firm? Sometimes these solo guys spend exorbitant funds on an office. I remember one with whom I interviewed who turned my stomach as soon as I walked into his office.
He had an office larger than any of the top (and I mean top) attorneys in what are known as "silk stocking", "white shoe" law firms. The show-off attorney also had 2 stuffed wild felines (cougars? lions? I don't remember) on either side of a fireplace, above which was a long gun which looked like a muzzle loader, but was according to him the gun with which he shot the animals on an African safari. I knew that moment that this was a wasted interview; I would never work for someone like that.
Flamboyant offices for some reason seem to go along with flamboyant attorneys, the "tv attorneys" who live in their own world of massive egos. I'm not saying they're not good, but they do inject more drama into their practice, including court appearances, than others, and are from my experience highly temperamental, with massive egos.
Goals are not just to provide good legal service, but to leverage their own profile.
"I have no idea what his assistant's qualifications are. When I started reading a list of some assets (with dollar amounts) receivable by my mom (and asking about the Medicaid implications), he said he needed to bring his assistant into the meeting."
She actually could have been an assistant attorney. Did she ask any questions? She could also have been a paralegal, or a secretary. Typically, good attorneys would introduce someone and state her profession.
She may have been primarily a note taker, which in my experience indicates the attorney can be a grandstander, let someone else do the grunt work, while he performs. She wouldn't have been a secretary, b/c they're not expected to understand and/or interpret how to handle assets.
"Later I think he said she was going to create an Affidavit of Succession or something like that, to transfer ownership of my mom's husband's bank account."
That's a new one on me, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The probate attorneys for whom I worked were long in the past, and I don't remember the details as probate was in some firms handled by the EP attorneys, but also separate probate attorneys.
Succession of a bank account depends on how the account was worded, such as "joint tenants with rights of survivorship". The account then would transfer directly to the survivor. That's how my parents' accounts were titled.
I have never, NEVER experienced any attorney adding up charges in his head except for an ESTIMATE. Attorneys compute "time and charges" data after a meeting, or not if the charges were already factored into the quote first given.
"Regarding my mom's will and Powers of Attorney, he asked to see her existing documents. All three documents needed replacing so he asked us some questions, then he left us in the the meeting room and returned with new versions to be signed and notarized."
Did he tell you the dox needed replacing, or did you determine this before visiting his office? That might or might not have been the case, but I nearly choked when I read that he returned with new versions. On the spot???
Attorneys DON'T revise dox on the spot and give them to clients. I've never in decades of experience seen this other than for some emergency, which wasn't EP related.
It just doesn't happen in good firms. I'm guessing he had boiler plate dox which weren't at all tailored to your mother's situation. Did he advise how to find a notary? Think twice before executing these documents.
Thanks again for your replies.
NOTE: One thing I forgot to mention above is that I've been told (after our appointment) that an attorney is required to have the client sign a Terms of Representation and/or a Terms of Engagement letter and this never came up in our meeting.
I'll attempt to answer your questions:
He was a single practitioner. His office seemed modern, professional, and clean, but not "exorbitant". It seemed appropriately-sized with his private office, a conference room with a large wooden table (which didn't look too expensive), and a couple of open offices for a couple assistants or secretaries.
The assistant did ask a few questions about the assets I was listing, including the bank account number (which I promised to provide later), and gave me instructions on how to transfer the car title to my mom. But just superficial stuff like that.
I didn't know my mom's will needed replacing before the appointment, but I brought it with me to the appointment "just in case" he needed to look at it. When he read it we discovered that it didn't do what she wanted (I had never read it myself), so I agree it needed replacement.
I knew before the meeting that the Powers of Attorney needed replacing because my mom's bank had previously told me that her POA only took effect if a doctor were to sign off that she was mentally incapacitated. In fact when I spoke to the attorney on the phone a couple weeks before making the appointment, he told me to bring the Powers of Attorney with me and that they would probably need to be replaced. So in the meeting I handed them over at his request and he returned a few minutes later with new versions of the will and POAs, had my mom sign them, took them out to his secretary or assistant (who had left the room by now) to notarize, then brought them back in and gave them to us.
Back to the fee issue - I was still assuming we were being charged $300 / hr for our visit based on what his assistant told me on the phone when I made the appointment. Since everything was happening in real-time, I (naively) had no idea we were racking up big separate charges for the documents, etc. until the "surprise" meeting ending. I've never had to deal with this stuff before.
thanks again,
wavemaster
With the advent of computerized programs, some attorneys did their own computer input, but others relied on secretaries.
All clients had numerical IDs for their needs. Those IDs were also used for any costs, including all photocopies. After completion of a project, or on a monthly basis for an ongoing client matter, bills would be produced and sent monthly. None were ever written on the back of an envelope!
In large firms, associate attorneys' bills were reviewed by partners, who sometimes made adjustments. Partners reviewed their own bills, and also sometimes made adjustments, up or down.
Bills issued on the spot probably wouldn't have included any photocopies, which with estate plans (especially with a trust) could be large.
I asked when making the appointment what the typical fees would be, and that is what we were charged for preparing the wills. We were also charged for an hour of the attorney's time for our meeting where we discussed what we wanted. At this meeting we also had him briefly review my husband's mother's will to make sure it was still going to accomplish what she wanted after so much time had elapsed since its creation. There wasn't an additional charge for that, it was included in the hour. The actual preparation of our wills was done after we left and we had to come back to execute them and get copies.
So I think it's typical that the will preparation would not have been included in an hour's consultation fee; it would have been nice for the attorney to inform you of the fee for that but my experience has been that they don't anticipate you'll want to know all the fees upfront like this, you have to ask. It's strange that the will prep was done on the spot; I would be concerned that it didn't receive the same attention it should have. Finally, I would never pay without receiving an itemized and understandable invoice. You'd open yourself to their interpretation of the day as to what you were paying for and possible additional charges.
Perhaps you need to consult with another equally rated attorney and ask for an upfront bid on all the work.
There's a statutory provision that for certain types of information, Veterans can NOT be charged.
KPWCSC wrote:
"We were trying to find out what to do to help qualify for VA benefits. I did not know to ask about fees up front. ... We were also not aware we were paying for time researching since they did not know the latest regarding VA issues!
These are statutory sections addressing charging for prep of documents qualifying a Veteran for financial benefits:
https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-38-veterans-benefits/38-usc-sect-5901.html and
https://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-38-veterans-benefits/38-usc-sect-5902.html
"(a)(1) The Secretary may recognize representatives of the American National Red Cross, the American Legion, the Disabled American Veterans, the United Spanish War Veterans, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, and such other organizations as the Secretary may approve, in the preparation, presentation, and prosecution of claims under laws administered by the Secretary."
There are more statutory establishments of representation issues, but this one seems to be the broad, overall mandate.
KPWCSC, it might be that the attorney who had to look up these issues wasn't intending to charge for preparation of an application or complimentary documents, but I thought it worthwhile to raise the issue of only statutorily selected agencies being addressed to provide support in applying for benefits.
it was about $1800 for a pour over will and updated trust agreements
Some attorneys do not charge for the initial visit and some do. This guy apparently charges $300 a pop. The receptionist should have explained this. As for the attorney, he should have given you at least a ballpark figure for the number of hours it could take to get the work done. You would then sign the letter if you agreed to the terms and pay your initial visit fee. If you declined his services and did not sign you'd pay the $300, gather up your papers, and leave.
On the other hand, this guy wrapped everything up in one sitting. Even though he rammed it all through within two hours, it came to $300 plus $600 plus $100 and then the $400 retainer with a total bill of $1400.
The one thing that puzzles me is the $400 retainer fee. An attorney sometimes asks for a retainer fee up front in case a client goes AWOL. He keeps it in what i calls an escrow account and can't touch it until he earns the money. Whatever money is left over goes back to the client. Maybe he charged you the retainer fee because he gave you the documents intending to bill you later. Very odd. Maybe because he was going to bill you later.. But what money? I don't know as he appeared to finish the whole thing in those two hours.
To answer your question, the guy was a dope. You didn't do anything wrong. But, from now on, you'll know to ask how much an initial visit costs and you'll expect a clear and complete letter of engagement, which you will read before you sign. So as far as I can see it was a discombobulating experience but if the documents are of high quality you'll be okay.