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Thank you - I have done that and have had meetings with the staff. They are claiming "there is nothing we can do about it" saying that they assessed my husband and he gave consent to her touching and kissing. I find it very hard to believe that a person with dementia can give consent to something that they probably aren't cognizant of or don't understand. Especially when the objective of the facility is to ensure that the residents are safe and healthy and should be protected from this kind of thing.
Does your husband have his own private room? If so, take him in there to visit.
Otherwise, take AlvaDeers advice. Or, if the touchy-feely woman is accompanied by anyone, ask that person to please keep her away from your husband. She obviously suffers from dementia herself and probably doesn't realize her behavior is as inappropriate as it is!
Thank you for your answer.......yes, he does have a private room and visiting with him in it is fine -- but what happens when we leave? She has been found in his room before. There have been three incidents of her sitting with him and taking him to other parts of his floor where they have been witnessed by staff to be sitting together, and she is touching/kissing. After the incidents occurred, I was told my an administrator that she would be monitored, and have to notify the facility when she was coming in to visit her own husband, but this apparently has not happened. We were actually up there this past weekend and caught her ourselves, sitting with him. She does not appear to have dementia but who knows. I think she is desperate for male attention since her husband's condition is quite advanced. She does visit her husband unaccompanied by any other family members. I feel like I have hit a wall with the facility and there is no other agency to which I can turn for any further guidance.
I am assuming this is a visitor from outside and not a resident? Is that correct? According to your answers you have spoken to administration and been told that your husband, who has dementia, has given his permission for this kissing and fondling.
Something is VERY VERY WRONG HERE. It is time to do reach out to Ombudsman, and to call in authorities if this is occurring at a licensed home. This is not all right.
You also claim that this person doesn't have dementia. That means hubby DOES as you listed it under that heading. He needs PROTECTION. If that isn't provided to him something is very wrong.
Speak first with the person herself. Tell her she will be reported for ELDER ABUSE if found with your husband again. THEN DO SO. Speak next with administration and explain to them their duty of care. If they cannot do it request Ombudsman. Can be found for your area online. I find this entire story quite unbelievable. I have never heard the like of it. This visitor should be banned from the premises if this continues. As I said, this facility, if it wishes to keep licensure, has a duty of care for someone suffering from dementia who has NOT THE CAPACITY to give permission to assaultive behavior. And use JUST THAT WORD.
An investigation under the auspices of the facility, and with the involvement of other authorities has been conducted. It just keeps on going back to the supposed crux of the matter: he gave consent to the behavior. Both my husband and her husband have dementia. I have had a meeting with the administration and of course reminded them of their duty of care but that was waved off in favor of the "consent" policy. In other words, their opinion is that if he was able to give consent, then he DOES have the capacity to do so. I will speak to his doctor about this and see if I can get anywhere! Very kind of you to respond, and we are on the same page.
Apparently, this woman has latched onto your husband. How does the staff know that he has given consent to this woman to kiss him?
Besides, he has Alzheimer’s disease and it seems like they should realize that he isn’t capable of making rational decisions. He might not know how to reject this woman’s affection for him.
I wonder why the facility isn’t respecting your wishes for her to stop visiting with him. It seems like they don’t want to be bothered by this situation, so they are ignoring your requests to monitor this woman’s behavior.
Best wishes to you and your husband. I hope you can resolve this issue soon.
Thanks very much for your kind response. I am wondering the same things that you are! It seems that some sort of "assessment" was done with him where he said (and I am guessing here since I am not allowed to see this assessment, nor video of the most recent incident since both are considered to be the facility's property) that what she was doing was okay (!!) and that since he had given consent to it, and this was considered to be his home now, he could engage in this. Does it make any sense to anyone that any long-term care facility would allow this kind of action between a resident and a non-resident, whether or not the resident said yes to it, and considering they are a dementia patient (or is this why she is doing it since she probably thinks they will either deny it or forget about it even happening!) I very much appreciate your good wishes!
Safe and healthy is certainly important! With spread of respiratory disease in elder facilities a problem that can lead to their injury (long-term brain or lung issues, which has happened to people I know) or death (which has also happened to people I know), I'd be irate if my LO was having face/lip contact with someone who might be spreading something infectious. In fact, my thought is that visitors, health workers and tradespeople should mask with KN95 well-fitting masks and be health screened before they even walk in the door.
That is correct, the mandate at the facility is that all of the above persons you have mentioned are mandated to wear masks but I noticed that she was not wearing one. The thought was uppermost in our minds of what she could spread to him and us subsequently. We had to, as caregivers, wear full PPE and masks when visiting him if there were any cases of covid in his building. During the time he was admitted to his previous facility, when covid first was discovered, we went for five months without seeing him which was devastating to all of us. The woman has been confronted and questioned by us, to no avail and by her behavior more or less shrugged it off which gave us the impression she was proud of herself for getting away with it this long.
Your husband can no longer make informed decisions. He may think this woman is you or a relative. You have rights too. You are married to him and don't like this woman with him, touching or kissing him.
Have u told this woman she is to stay away from your husband. If she wants a boyfriend, find him outside the facility. Really, if she has been told and continues, there is something wrong with her.
You are right, and I do think there is something wrong with her. I think that because of her husband's advanced dementia, and unresponsiveness, she is seeking the touching and kissing outside her own marriage (my husband and I have been married for over 45 yrs and never had to face an issue like this). My husband recognizes myself and our child, and he often introduces me to people at the facility as "his wife", and also uses my first name so I know he is aware. Yes I do have rights but the sad part of that is that mine are being discounted and not considered. We actually surprised this woman sitting with my husband yet again last weekend, and our child let her have it. Her response? No answers, no admission, smirking and smiling and smugness.
Needs to use the word "sexual assault" and get restraining order and report facility to authorities to failing in duty to protect. Words matter in this instance. Have to use the strongest words.
I’ll give you an even worse situation. A couple I knew who ran a local shop, had a young adult son with a mental health problem (probably triggered by drugs) who went as a resident in the state psychiatric hospital. He met a young woman visitor in the common areas, they got friendly, she visited in his room, they had sex, she had a baby, and she named him as father on the birth certificate. He now has serious obligations to the child. The ‘grandparents’ can’t believe it could have happened, but it did.
“Consent” is a very tricky thing. Like a few other 'principles', it can be over-rated.
In Naugatuck, Connecticut a man was charged with sexual assault for licking a girl's face after she hit him with a ball while she was playing.
Years ago, I was walking on the street at a crowded festival with my spouse when a man dressed as a woman (I could see his genitals outlined under his tight dress) rushed toward me. He said, "You're a lesbian, aren't you, hon?" and licked my face. I'm not a lesbian, and I was too shocked to speak or move. All I wanted to do was wash off his saliva. Later, I realized that this had been an assault.
These days, if someone were putting bodily fluids on my LO or me, I would not take it lightly. I don't think OP should, either.
I am so sorry that happened to you Fawnby! Nasty, gross, and yes, assault, are the words that come to mind. And I agree with all of your last paragraph 100 percent.
Tell the staff that you don't want her around your husband??? You're in a different country so I'm not sure why you're asking a predominantly American-based caregiver forum.
Use your favorite search engine and search for "can a person with dementia give sexual consent?" There are many articles that discuss this very issue in different countries. This exact search in Google gave me the UK Alzheimer's organization as the first result.
Do you by chance have guardianship or whatever is available in your country? In the US, wards cannot give consent. That is something to consider in your circumstances.
Are you able to discuss this with your husband seven13? If staff say he has given his consent you too should be able to do this and see yourself what he has to say about it. His response to you might be helpful in going forward. Are you in UK?
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
Otherwise, take AlvaDeers advice. Or, if the touchy-feely woman is accompanied by anyone, ask that person to please keep her away from your husband. She obviously suffers from dementia herself and probably doesn't realize her behavior is as inappropriate as it is!
Is that correct?
According to your answers you have spoken to administration and been told that your husband, who has dementia, has given his permission for this kissing and fondling.
Something is VERY VERY WRONG HERE.
It is time to do reach out to Ombudsman, and to call in authorities if this is occurring at a licensed home. This is not all right.
You also claim that this person doesn't have dementia.
That means hubby DOES as you listed it under that heading.
He needs PROTECTION. If that isn't provided to him something is very wrong.
Speak first with the person herself.
Tell her she will be reported for ELDER ABUSE if found with your husband again.
THEN DO SO.
Speak next with administration and explain to them their duty of care.
If they cannot do it request Ombudsman. Can be found for your area online.
I find this entire story quite unbelievable. I have never heard the like of it.
This visitor should be banned from the premises if this continues.
As I said, this facility, if it wishes to keep licensure, has a duty of care for someone suffering from dementia who has NOT THE CAPACITY to give permission to assaultive behavior. And use JUST THAT WORD.
Besides, he has Alzheimer’s disease and it seems like they should realize that he isn’t capable of making rational decisions. He might not know how to reject this woman’s affection for him.
I wonder why the facility isn’t respecting your wishes for her to stop visiting with him. It seems like they don’t want to be bothered by this situation, so they are ignoring your requests to monitor this woman’s behavior.
Best wishes to you and your husband. I hope you can resolve this issue soon.
Have u told this woman she is to stay away from your husband. If she wants a boyfriend, find him outside the facility. Really, if she has been told and continues, there is something wrong with her.
“Consent” is a very tricky thing. Like a few other 'principles', it can be over-rated.
If it were a MAN, wouldn’t they be calling it assault?
You are correct to go in there and raise HOLY HELL.
YOU are not wrong. THEY are.
Years ago, I was walking on the street at a crowded festival with my spouse when a man dressed as a woman (I could see his genitals outlined under his tight dress) rushed toward me. He said, "You're a lesbian, aren't you, hon?" and licked my face. I'm not a lesbian, and I was too shocked to speak or move. All I wanted to do was wash off his saliva. Later, I realized that this had been an assault.
These days, if someone were putting bodily fluids on my LO or me, I would not take it lightly. I don't think OP should, either.
Do you by chance have guardianship or whatever is available in your country? In the US, wards cannot give consent. That is something to consider in your circumstances.
And how is your mother?