Mom and step dad have a decent retirement income and savings, but in the past year have started withdrawing large sums of cash. Suggestions?

Gambling? On line or going to a casino? It is a problem with some elderly people. They are bored, it gives them some excitement.

Or a Nigeria prince scam? Is someone insisting on being given cash with the threat that they will be turned into the IRS or SS if they don't?

Is this a durable POA?  I don't understand why DH cannot control money?  We just took checkbook away

You say that bills are being paid automatically...are they in their own home? So bills like utilities, taxes, mortgage (if they have one) insurance, all are on autopay? Rent? Is your husband who has FPOA is paying bills for them, or are they still in charge of their checkbook? Do they have a credit card, and can you see their statement, online perhaps if you can’t find a hard copy? That might tell you something. Do they still drive and get out? What about food or shopping? Do they do that on their own? Lawn maintenance? I’m just trying to figure out where money could be going, without it being an auto paid bill. Or a scam. Could it be that they’re stashing it somewhere in the house? My GF family found staches of money all over the place after her GM passed away, in books and kitchen. If they can’t explain the money, it’s time to take over their checkbook.

Your husband can set-up a separate account just for ATM withdrawals. The account should have a very low withdrawal limit - $50 or less. This will prevent your parents from withdrawing amounts above the set limits. Deposit more funds as appropriate. Their bank should be able to help with setting up a new account with debit only or ATM withdrawal privileges.

This option will frustrate them and make them angry, but isn't it better than them being broke???

As their financial POA, your husband must prevent them from squandering their liquid assets. It's also important for their dignity to give them an "allowance".

Losing and misusing money is part of the disease we broadly call dementia. Therefore, limiting the amount of money they can lose or misuse is a way to limit your and your husband's frustrations with their unwise and irrational behavior.

Hi Grans. Are they writing checks or going to the bank to withdraw cash? How are you seeing these events? On bank or credit card statements? As POA, your husband has legal right to inquire at bank and get access to identify what is going on. Provide some more info and I (and others) might have some strategies on how to help.

I think it's different in each state but Medicaid only asked us to explain cash withdrawals in excess of $1000. And we just had to explain the withdrawals, not prove they took a vacation or paid a roofer or anything. You could ask your stepfather to please keep receipts of his stem cell purchases or silver or whatever. Medicaid only wants to make sure they aren't giving it away to family or friends They can make all the donations to their favorite charities that they want.
Would a conversation with an estate planning lawyer be helpful?

OMG, G1952 did you say that your folks are buying “silver”?!?!!

please please asap go thru whatever paperwork on these, especially if they are actually getting real bullion or “collectible” coins or “shares on paper”. Really silver as investments tend to be scams. The hook that is used is is “silver paid $50 oz in the past & it’s coming back” nonsense as your parents are old enough to remember the Hunt Brothers & the silver rush that they missed out on....... Yeah in like 1980. And back then I wore a size 4-6 and those days are not, NOT, coming back.

Silver is like maybe $15 and that’s kinda spot price for certified bars (these babies are weight stamped & have some sort of paperwork as to provenance as where mined - like 5 oz. Perth) for quite a while. There is / was a big scam going on with silver, where you buy a collectible silver coin for $100. But coin wasn’t a true rare or precious worth $100 on open market. It actually has a melt value or spot price of $45 -$55. Literally you loose half of your $ immediately.

Theres a whole series on the silver scam just this last Nov & Dec in Quartz by Jeremy Merrill entitled “Mining for Silver”. The scammers prospect & use Facebook and conservative talk radio. Lisa Rowan also has written on this in different financial advice columns for other publications (she has great & often hilarious podcasts too).

really if your folks are getting silver scammed, their info is being sold and they are going to be approached on other even more dubious “investments”. They are gonna get fleeced. Please please try to get over soon to clearly review what exactly it is that they are buying. There are legitimate ways to invest in rare coins & precious metals (1 of the best companies worldwide is in my city) but these are going to be $ 25k, 50k $$$+ coins with provenance. Not $1,000 buys. Not sending cash or money orders in the mail to buy stuff.

Grams1952, the problem with a DPOA in your situation is that even though it allows your husband to pay bills and access accounts, as the EC attorney said, it does nothing to stop your mom or step-dad from spending money however they want and/or even revoking the DPOA altogether, unless there is an "incompetency" conditional clause in it, e.g. two doctors certifing incompetency. If such a clause isn't in the DPOA, then your family can either continue working around the problem as best you can or guardianship/conservatorship can be sought. But, in either case, if legal incompetency is not found, then maybe all you can do is try to help them avoid scams and report any suspicious activities to adult protective services (APS). It is not illegal for adults to spend or invest their money foolishly, but it is illegal to prey on vulnerable adults and there's a lot of gray area between the two. Talking to the bank manager and your "quiet transfers from checking to savings" are excellent first steps -- hope it works.

I sympathize with your other problems of not all siblings "being on board" for guardianship and possible future Medicaid disallowance. If a formalized family meeting to discuss these issues hasn't already happened, then I suggest doing that ASAP. And use a professional mediator if it is at all likely that such a meeting will quickly become an accusatory shouting match and/or a passive-aggressive chess match. Also investigate your state's Medicaid rules and practices. In my case, two of us thoroughly investigated Medicaid practices and both of us asked for family meetings with the other six. but there were no positive responses. So, I went ahead and did what was best for my dad. Best wishes in navigating this hard time.

Sadly, your story is not uncommon, and the Elder Care Attorney is providing accurate advice.

In cases where an elder's finances are minimal and a single bank account can be restricted, it may be possible to manage an elder's decline in capacity with a POA document.

But you are describing a case where the work involved with gaining Probate Conservatorship can save your parents and your family from much greater stress in the future. Conservatorship is the only way you can compel third party financial institutions to comply with restrictions needed to stop the drain of funds to financial predators.

Beyond the tragedy of lost resources that could have been used for care, the end game if Medicaid eligibility becomes necessary involves a severe accounting nightmare. A Medicaid application will require you to explain the transfers of drained funds.

Chaos during the 5 year look back period makes the Medicaid Application preparation 100x more burdensome than if a Conservator starts right now with the tasks of managing and accounting for your parents' life savings.

Your husband has no right to control his parents' spending (especially not his father's) but he does have a right to insist on being given information about it.

His parents have given him POA. This means that they have trusted him to manage their affairs in the future, when they no longer can. He can explain to his father that without information about their finances, including who is receiving their money, he cannot do the job they have appointed him to do.

His father is more likely to be open with him about where the money's going if your husband doesn't argue with him about his choices.

You can't control his spending without conservatorship/guardianship. Just make sure he understands that he will become a ward of the state when he has no funds left.

Folks who are competent can make their own stupid decisions. That does not, however, obligate their children to rescue them from their poor decisions after the fact.

If the current laws permit elders to be taken advantage of financially, I don't see how the government [aka Medicaid] can then deny funding for care just because they've lost money to swindlers.

Have you directly asked them why are they withdrawing money? I am curious what they would tell you.

You mentioned church. Do you think they are donating to the church? Some churches ask for lots of money.

"We would love to take control, but it has to be a legal process, and other siblings are not all on board."
The sibling issue is the bigger problem, and maybe the only way would be guardianship. This could become a nightmare, both for time and expense, esp if parents or siblings contest it. If there is any way around this, it would be better!

"Elder Care attorney says that without going to court for conservatorship, we can't control their spending."
The "expert" who chimed in seemed to back up your attorney's statements. I am confused about this though. DPOA becomes "effective" the minute it's signed and gives one the authority to make financial decisions. Curbing spending maybe isn't part of that, but restricting access to funds could stop the drain. With DPOA you should be able to move the funds to a "safe" place, without taking the money to your account, in their own acct or trust.

When my mother was making mistakes (no excess spending, just mistakes), I stepped in and took over. We had DPOA and she added me and YB to her CU acct long before this. However, she had opened an acct in a closer bank, and had SS deposited there, for easier access to cash when she wanted/needed it. I was NOT on the acct and did no business with them, so they didn't know me. I had SS redirected to the CU acct and once verified, I took her to the bank with DPOA and withdrew all the funds via check and closed the acct, then deposit it in her CU acct. She did/said nothing other than rifle through her wallet/purse, both at CU and bank. I have read others' say banks refused to honor POAs, but in our case I got no flak. Meanwhile we had the EC atty revise/update so we could protect her home and assets (trusts.) As her CDs matured, I transferred the funds to my acct and then deposited these into the trust acct (EC said this was okay as I was "disabled." Bank/CU didn't know that! Not sure how that works, but...) No one ever gave me grief.

I had to sign up as SS rep payee, to change the address for paperwork (can't forward federal mail and federal entities DON'T honor any POAs.) It was worse getting to be her rep for the pension as it is federal, but eventually the right words were written up by the doc - funds still go to the primary acct, but I manage it all from there and can work with pension people for changes.

IF they have excess funds (savings, etc.), can you not move those to a sub-acct or lock them into CDs? DPOA should allow that. See EC atty and set up a trust for these funds? Their regular income will have to be addressed differently. You could try the SS route (call local office, not the 800#, unless you enjoy being on hold!) for their SS income. If approved, it goes to you as rep payee and each has a special acct only you can access. It requires yearly reporting, but can be done online (keep good receipts/accounting.) Other income would have to be taken care of as well, leaving them "enough" to have money for "extras", but not enough to blow on these probable scams or carry around with them.  

Curious to know if you can figure out who their "contact" is for the silver - hopefully not one of the resistant siblings...

If all else fails, then guardianship will be the answer. If they continue to blow through their savings/income, with no legit paper trail, it could prevent them getting Medicaid, if/when they might need it!

I would meet with the EC atty (or another, might get free initial consult) and discuss the issues and what can/can't be done. Having more or less taken over their acct(s), I don't understand why it's so hard to move assets to a sub-acct or CD to prevent access. A trust set up (you and another trusted person as trustees) would be best and less expensive and time-consuming than going to court (consider house trust as well.) If you can get approval to be rep for any pensions, redirect enough of the funds to another sub-acct for them, leaving them "spending" money, and protect the rest.

Hope you find the simplest solution!

There are two different types of DPOAs. One is immediate and the other Springing. Springing is only in effect when the person is found incompetent to make decisions for themselves. This is what I had for Mom. Yes, I wrote her checks and signed them POA with her permission. But I didn't fully take over until her Dementia made it that I had to. So u need to read the POAs.

First, get ur inlaws evaluated. If they are found incompetent, than ur husband can take over. As POA the siblings really have no say. He can keep them in the loop but parents assigned him. You can then take their checkbook out of the house. My uncle was able to put him down as the only signer on my Gma's account. (Family member was forging checks) Maybe DH can do something like that.

Conservatorship may cost money. I think Medicaid allows the use of ur parents money to set it up. Check with ur lawyer.

If they can tell you how they are spending the money it will be helpful to the solution. My mom buys a lot of supplements too....... Her supplier has her info on file. I am joint on my mom's accounts. I try to keep the balance in the checking account low- a couple hundred more than the expected bills, all on auto pay too. Mom has no ability to go on line and move money. Not too computer savvy. Now she is SURE she needs an atm card- she has never had one. Not happening. We agreed on an amount of cash that is reasonable for her to have on hand. I would replenish once a month when I visit. This suits her just fine. I think it is something finite she can control as managing the the house is a bit overwhelming for her.

My sister an I are more worried about fraud and her being swindled out of large sums of money than her having 100 rolls of toilet paper on hand, a dresser full of supplements and some cash hidden in her bottom drawer. She understands the need for us to know the location.

It might be Best from the Rest to Advise Dad to be Careful in case they do Need to go into a Nursing facility, Do it Carefully. Maybe good he is doing it Now but in the Future if things are looking like a Facilty, You may need to set foot In to make sure it is Protected. See the Courts then.

they go back 5 years. So unless they have cash to go somewhere they might be out of luck.

Every time you spend time with your parents, be sure to you “engineer” a conversation about their community.

Keep a stockpile of “openers” in your head - to get Mom & Dad to open up about who they see and who they interact with.

Who bought the Jones’ house at the end of the street? Who do you trust to service your car, now that Bob’s Garage is closed? Is XXX’s niece still a cashier at Walmart? Muse that you see (or don’t see) a lot of families with young kids in your parents’ neighborhood now. Ask your parents who cleans their gutters, who mows their lawn, etc (act like you want a recommendation for someone).

Every time you see Mom & Dad, make sure that some aspect of your conversation spurs them to reveal something about their little world.

If Mom or Dad mentions a “nice single mom” or “fella who’s down on his luck,” pay special attention.

Your parents spending does not affect their ability to get Medicaid. Your parents GIFTING does. As my (somewhat crass) Medicaid attorney says, "your parents can spend their money on hookers and booze in Las Vegas, they just can't give you money to spend on hookers and booze in Las Vegas." Another example, what would be the difference in your parents buying expensive stem cell supplements, or buying all new (unnecessary) windows for their house? I ask because this was my case -- my mother was talked into several new windows as well as new rain gutters, and having large, old trees removed from the backyard...all to the tune of $25K (!!) It really hasn't affected anything in terms of her eligibility for Medicaid. We had invoices and we had cancelled checks. That's what Medicaid cares about -- being able to trace large sums of money. These examples go to show that your Elder Care attorney is correct -- without a court order, your parents can spend, spend, spend. My advice: Elder Care attorneys are not Medicaid attorneys -- I'd meet with the latter to help you understand the process of becoming Medicaid eligible, if the time should ever come. It's pretty eye-opening.

First, try to talk to them and offer to take over the management of their financial affairs. It is a common symptom of dementia that there is poor judgment with financial matters, and elderly people are also targeted by scammers. Can your husband move some of their money to another account in their name where they won't see it? People have a right to spend money on things that please them and even to make poor money decisions. But if dementia is involved, it's different. Now is the time to make sure that all paperwork is in order (will, power of attorney for financial and medical affairs, etc.). My bank required it's own POA document for my mother's accounts. Fortunately at that time, she was still able to sign documents.

It is their money, they can spend as they wish, they cannot transfer funds or assets to family members, friends or the likes, but, as far as spending, I repeat, it is their money to buy a new car, put windows, carpets, furniture in their home, go on lavish trips, and you can't get most elder law attorney's to agree to conservatorship. However, if you honestly feel someone is scamming them out of their money you could have Social Security look into it by filing a fraud report, however, this should only be done if you can back up your allegations.

Continue to keep an eye on it. As soon as you see signs of them not knowing or remembering what they are spending, get a POA and take control of their spending. Get involved now, or end up paying the difference later when they can’t afford the level of care that they need because they spent irresponsibly. Don’t allow debt to accumulate.

Ignore the experts for the moment. Common sense dictates you and husband MUST control their spending, or at least get details on where the money is going. Spend some time at their house and gather bank statements, other paperwork. With their dementia, they probably won't notice any missing papers. If you think they'll notice, take pictures of bank statements and other paperwork with your phone. You can also create online log-ins for their accounts, so you can get details as they occur. Yes, this is a legal gray area, but if your parents don't already have online log-ins for their accounts, it's easy to do--AND, it prevents someone else from doing it, someone like the housekeeper or the friend-of-friend they've allowed to move in with them. You can walk into their bank with the signed DPOA and the bank will most likely accept it, despite horror stories you may read. (Don't bring the parents to the bank!) The bank will scan it, email it to their legal department for approval, and you will walk out in an hour with your signed original back in your pocket. While you're at the bank, ideally their local branch, explain the situation to the bank person helping you--"mom and dad have dementia, they are being scammed, please contact me if you notice anything unusual, here's my number." The parents are probably too far gone to be allowed to conduct any business or make any decisions, and they will only get worse as the months go by. Start taking over EVERYTHING. Most likely they may verbally protest your "interference," but they will be unable to take any other steps to prevent your "meddling." This is real life vs. elder law. The elder law attorney is good for creating documents, but not so good for dealing with your parents' dementia in the day-to-day reality. You must contact their doctors, lawyers, etc., and tell them about the parents' dementia, and give them your contact info. PS: But don't tell the elder law attorney that you took their bank statements and set up online log-ins!

How are they getting the cash? Are they driving with denentia??? Please tell me their not driving. If they cant drive they cant get cash, unless someone is taking them to the bank. You can ask the bank to call you if that is happening. Or maybe set up something where you need to be there? Ask the bank I'm sure they have seen this before.

If you have to get conservatorship do it! You've got to stop the money flow now!
Id start monitoring them more closely. Do you live close by? Get their phone shut off. My dad was getting calls from Jamaica. A guy was pretending to be his friend. Trying to get $ sent to him. Mom turned the phone volume down so he wouldnt hear it ring. If you visit daily, they dont need a phone. Surprise visit so maybe you will catch someone there? Unplug phone or have it shut off. Altho someone needs to make sure they are alright.
My dad also started sending away for everything in the mail. You can get on a no more junk mail list to cut that down. Maybe get the Mail sent to you? We put my parents name on that so it helped some.

Put up a camera so you can see if anyone goes to their door. Who knows if someone is soliciting them for money. Pretending to do work for them, or be their friend visiting.
Change out the checking account register/checks for a fake one. They wont know and can write checks forever, and there is no real account. Might be easier than saying your taking it. Switch it out. Take their check book, but dont let them see. As soon as you do that there will be a huge fight.
You have to get that money flow to stop and get to the bottom of it.
My mom had to take the checkbook from my dad. She said he had lost the checks. That way he wasnt mad at her. He looked but didnt spend hrs searching.
You have got to stop that now. Good luck. How awful.

I want to urge you to try to get conservatorship if you can. I have a friend whose father, a well off former architect, was totally impoverished and forced to sell the home he had designed and built himself because phone scammers were taking his money. This had been going on for a while before my friend discovered the situation. By that time, a great deal of money was gone. It was a heartbreaking situation. Unless you have that authority it may be hard to get the bank to do anything for you.

In addition to fake health products, your mother and step dad may be responding to too many solicitors and scammers. Checks and Credit Card charges would be able to be traced so you (or POA husband) can see where money is going. If they are using cash, can you intervene in how they get that cash?

I know from experience that there are many one-time bills that don't fit under automatic payment. Things like new tires, car repairs, dead tree removal, dental emergencies, meds that cost beyond Medicare Part D limits. Some churches require promise of tithing for membership. Maybe they are saving for a cruise. Not everything os going for junk.

When you ask them about what they're spending the money on, will they tell you? Money is allowed to be spent as long it is for their care and receipts are kept. What about having competency evaluation performed on both of them? As afar as I understand it, if they are found incompetent than the POA becomes active. Perhaps his physician could talk to him about the ineffectiveness of the stem cells, etc. I'd also try to ascertain what charities are receiving money and if there are any individuals who are scamming them.

Go to their house and start nosing around. Check incoming mail, mail laying around, etc. If they are getting cash from the bank, you're going to have to talk to them to see what they say. If they are writing checks, it would appear you already have access to the bank account since you are aware of w/drawals, so get copies of the checks to see who they were made out to.

There is a 5 year look back period and large sums, like you state, are going to have to be explained. Giving away money/assets will cause them to be penalized when it is time for Medicaid to pay for a nursing home bed or other assistance. They may not even realize they are creating a future problem.

I say, go ask them about it and tell them you want to make sure they are not getting scammed or taken advantage of by someone. If one of them gets mad about you asking how their money is spent, try to explain they will not be able to get help when they need it if they give the money away. If they have used it for repairs on house/car etc, tell them you need to help them create a file for big expenses to document for Medicaid later on.

If all you get is an argument, it might be time to seek conservatorship before they create a problem that cannot be undone later on.